Please consider ammending Hurricane result

Hi Kieth RO for last nights race Wed 10 August.  You clearly did not pick up  Hurricane 390 entered without his listed  crew onboard.   James the helm clearly "to us " sailed single handed without Oliver as listed ,  his normal crew. 

 No real safety or interferance problem given the very light condtions but 
my understand when on the sailing commitee years ago "allbeit "was that you could only claim points if it was a special single hander race. Please could you discuss this with Robin C.  VICE COM and make any resulting adjustments required.  Many thanks

Regards Graham Hur 485

The view we have always taken is that if a class is defied as a 2 man boat , it needs to be sailed as such for the results to count.
I have  actually sailed a Merlin on Boxing Day myself (for some reason the family were doing other things!) and didn't enter the race.
Robin Charles

Hi. I was in the race box with Jonathan Carr. We did notice the single handed hurricane.  Is there a written rule about this somewhere or is it that it invalidates the PY number? Grant

Hi Grant.  Unlike the Dart, the Hurricane class rules state it is a two person boat when racing. Helm and crew  

Please note the smaller  Dart 18 can race with just a helm under its class rules by removing its jib. There is no provison in the current Hurricane rules to do this or change the PY rating to even up the weight advantage. 

In my opinion you should therefore take Robin Clarles advice and not awards any points to Hur390 in this race. 

If you have any issues Ben Cutler- Sharp is a SYC club member and Chairperson of the Hurricane Association and knows the rules inside out.

Also l have been warned in the past that  racing singled handed in a  Hurricane  is against the racing rules and insurance may not cover you , but Ben could confirm.the current situation .

It is also very hard for one person of average weight to get the boat up after a capize so there is a safety issue.

Cheers Graham






 

Hi Graham 

Whilst it may have been clear James had no crew aboard, we can't just amend the result in this case.  If the Hurricane class rules state that there should be two crew members, then the correct approach would be to register a protest under RRS 78.1, compliance with class rules.

The protest should have been registered within the  time limit for the race (30 minutes after last finisher) so unfortunately I don't think there is an official recourse now.  However, James might choose to retire if the class rule has been brought to his attention?

Thanks Dave ,

I did not have any real objection to James  joining in with the race at the last min. As the wind was light and he kept well out of my way , l just did not expect him to claim points. 

By the time we all got back to the race box it was locked up and no results were posted on the window. Only read the result at home, clearly too late for a protest. 

As a newbe to the fleet  l can understand James  may not have realised under the Hurricane rules you need a crew.  He should have signed on with the crew slot left blank however to comply with sign on rules.

Hopefully James who  will now retire when  he reads this forum and understands the Hurricane rules.

 Regards Graham 







 

Given the OOD did not provide a printed copy of the results and you were therefore not aware of the situation before the time limit, there is a good case that this omission affected the result.  On that basis I think it's probable a protest committee would consider a protest submitted after the official time limit.  

HI all, seams a lot of fuss about nothing to me.
I come to the club to enjoy sailing more than count points. I had no idea you could not race at the club with only a helm in the hurricane fleet, although if conditions are apropriate i am more than happy to sail single handed. I woud always only go on the water if i feel i can get back independantly and it is safe to go out.

If the rules are as discussed please retire me from the race. I realy enjoyed the race on wednesday it was nice to have suffcient wind to finish and lie on the trampoline in the evening sun for an hour. Fingers crossed for some wind on sunday although i dont hold out much hope. Then off to the nationals for some fun and games.

Cheers
james
 

John Donovan has managed to find the Hurricane rules for me. See below. 
 
I now have a copy of the rules  – the relevant rule is 13, which I have copied below.
 
13.1 The racing crew shall consist of two people. Both shall have one foot in contact with the boat at all time when racing.
 
So this obviously excludes using the Hurricane single handed when racing and also jumping up and down when you get frustrated !!
 
Hope that helps

Thanks Graham for the information.

Does that mean that for club racing that we also need to follow the specific class rules. Would there be any potential other rules that could conflict with SYCs race rules?

Just a thought.

Hi Grant, not that l know of.  Will talk to John Donovan.  The sailing commitee agreed that the Hurricane could be a Club Class after long discussions.  Conditions were set.  Detailed "paper"records have probably been lost. When l bought one l was told l had to have a crew to race and get points inline with Club and  Hurricane Class rules.
Cheers Graham

Grant

ABSOLUTELY - the club Notice of Race / Sailing Instructions (in common with practically every other set of sailing instructions) has always had a clause to link the relevant class rules (all of them!) into our rules.  See Section 7  - "Each competitor is responsible for ensuring that their boat complies with class rules and regulations."

The hierarchy of rules is RRS, then RYA national provisions, then class rules, and finally any local SYC rules.  Unless there is an explicit exception stated in our documents you must comply with all rules for your class.  I can't see how it could be any other way - otherwise what's to stop me sailing without the 16Kg of lead correctors in my Merlin - or sticking a B14 spinnaker on it (now there's an idea!).

In the past we have had 'temporary exceptions' to class rules in our SIs.  The last one I can remember was for the Hornet class - allowing them to trial a new spinnaker design - before it was adopted by the class.  At one point John Donovan discussed having an exception for the smaller mainsail option on the Hurricane - but I think it was decided to try and get it adopted as part of the class rules.

If you wanted to sail your RS200 out of class (e.g. single handed), then there is nothing to stop you requesting the Sailing Committee to recognise a new "RS200- SH" class - and agree a PY number for it.  Again, we already have examples of pseudo-classes that have been recognised for racing (Mirror - SH, National 12 - DB, Merlin Rocket - Wood).

Mark

A can of worms being opened here. What about the Lasers? Quite a few race at SYC with non class legal sails and that is before wondering whether they are a Laser or an ILCA and which set of rules should apply. 

Hi Mark

Is it really? - as far as I am aware there doesn't appear to be rumblings of discontent in the slow handicap fleet for people sailing boats that are essentially identical (whatever their official name).  As far as I'm aware no one has protested the use of replica equipment or the legal name of a class in at leas the last twenty years of racing at SYC.  I suspect if anyone was actually sailing something that really wasn't a laser we would see protests.

Of course if the slow handicap fleet were concerned it would be easy to add some words to the SIs to indicate what is and what isn't acceptable as a Laser.  Other clubs have done that - and I think the ILCA actually have provided some example wording for clubs to used.  The general result seems to be "carry on what you were all doing anyway"!

Mark

We will discuss the use of replica Laser equipment at the next sailing committee meeting with a view to adding some wording to the SIs - please contact Robin Charles or myself if you have any objection.

As Mark comments, every competitor is responsible for ensuring that their boat complies with the class rules and this applies to all racing at Starcross.  However, it is clearly unrealistic for Race Officers to be familiar with the rules for each and every class.  Also, the Sailing Committee will not simply amend results as a result of a comment on the forum or grumbling in the dinghy park.  If you believe that a competing boat does not comply with the applicable class rules, you must submit a protest as per the normal process - please see RRS 78.1
 

I haven't heard any grumbles in the slow handicap either and was just using Lasers as an example. I am pretty relaxed about what equipment is being used and how many people are in a boat.
If the sailing committee is going to discuss this and allow exemption for non-class equipment on a cost saving basis, it should apply to all the manufacturer controlled classes, be it Laser, Topper, RS, White Formula etc.

 

Thanks Mark,
Can I encourage this discussion to take place across all classes, as suggested. I have replica equipment on my elderly (soon to start racing at SYC) 29er simply from a cost saving perspective. No advantage afloat is desired or expected, it's simply to keep an older boat racing and those with 'less deep' pockets joining in the fun at club level.
Scott.
29er GBR346